Ethical Seafood, Aquatic Animal Welfare, & Marine Conservation with Wasseem Emam- Part 3

Erin McCann 59:42

The ongoing relationships, the on the ground work, the quantifiable progress, drawing on these other frameworks where needed, absolutely makes sense. And it sounds like it's an ever-evolving process, that as you learn more, you continue expanding that definition and you're also tailoring that success based on where that particular farm or that particular collaborator is in their process and the specific species that you're focused on.

Wasseem Emam 1:00:11

Every country is different. Every even region is different. You know, in some places, in some countries that we work like, they're really advanced in their practices and other places are less. And, you know, the environment that they work in creates different solutions, realities. Sorry. So, for example, Kenya, their soils are actually so porous that they don't retain water very well. So trying to farm fish in a pond in place like Kenya, you lose a lot of water to the soil in a year and it becomes, actually, it affects the economic equation, let's say. So they use these liners in their ponds, like these kind of polythene sheets to line the ponds, which solves that problem.

But then, from an animal welfare perspective, actually, one of the nice things about ponds that we always say that tilapia are -- if you have to eat one species, tilapia are one of the somehow better, you know, actually, you've removed this substrate that they have. They love the substrate. So it's a bit of a shame in that sense. But I was just giving an example of how every country has different realities. They have predators like birds that eat their fish in places like Kenya as well. We don't have that much so much in Egypt because the migratory paths, pathways for birds don't pass over the fish farming area so much. So, yeah, it's just about understanding where you're working and the realities and so on.

Erin McCann 1:01:47

Makes sense. Thank you for walking through that example. Looking ahead, you mentioned earlier that we not only have some level of consumer awareness on the rise and that there's still much to do in terms of knowledge-sharing. And we also know we're at least starting to see a demand or interest in ethically-sourced food, including seafood. How do you see the market evolving?

Wasseem Emam 1:02:23

Yeah, so I think it depends which market you're looking at, of course. So, one thing that has been very interesting in the, again, aquaculture sector is that something like electrical stunning of fish, shrimps even, seemed unfathomable some years ago. More and more retailers, I'd say, are the ones really driving that change, are saying, nope, all of the seafood in our supply chain needs to have been electrically stunned -- farmed, farmed, I mean.

We're also seeing a bit of that interest now in wild-caught seafood. In Norway, for example, a lot of the fish that they catch, they have these, like, onboard stunners. They don't do it for animal welfare reasons, particularly, even though that's, you know, a side benefit. There is some understanding of that. There's a really exciting project going on there in that sense, in that space, but consumers are demanding it there from a quality perspective, but also ethically.

Erin McCann 1:03:30

Can you unpack that real quick just for listeners that may not be as aware. When we're talking about stunning, why does that connect to the conversation on quality? And why does that connect to the conversation on animal welfare?

Wasseem Emam 1:03:43

Yeah. So the theory is that, okay, no, well, maybe a backtrack. Okay, let's look at aquaculture first. So normally at the end of the production cycle, the fish are ready to be harvested. I say fish, but, you know, let's say whatever aquatic animal is being farmed, the time comes, they, you know, if it's a pond, they're watering, they're lowering the water level to prepare for that. They stop feeding, and they remove the fish. And usually using nets or pumps or whatever, usually they just put them directly onto ice. Ice is the most common way of, well, it is slaughter, but we call it asphyxiation or torture because that's not really slaughter. I mean, it is. You're killing them, but they are, you know, it's not a -- it cannot be a pleasant experience. So, that's the typical way that it's done in most places around the world, except for salmon farming. Scotland, Norway, and I think Canada has a bit of that.

But that they now have a lot more -- one form of stunning before being put on ice or being bled or having gills cut, they either manually like percussive stunning, a bit like what bolts that they use in terrestrial farming, or electrically stunning them on these, like, conveyor belts, there's dry and there's wet stunning. And that is a much more humane way of slaughtering the fish, you know, so that they're in not conscious when they're, you know, slaughtered. Yeah. So that's something that comes from aquaculture. But now we're seeing it a lot more, and the conversation is actually extending to wild caught fisheries, which is, I think very exciting because it seemed, you know, some years ago, just unfathomable to think that, you know, these massive fishing vessels could actually be bringing that on board, but because of the quality -- oh, sorry, so, you asked me about quality. Right.

So, in the fish's final moments or in whatever animal is being farmed or captured, the more stressed they are, the more lactate goes into their muscles. And that causes rigidity, and that can affect palatability and flavor, and especially discerning consumers. So, things like the sashimi market, they really care about the way that the fish are caught for that trade, let's say. So there is a relationship between stress and like capture stress, harvest stress, let's say, and fillet quality in case of fish. Or, I don't even know what the word is for, like shrimps and other animals, but there's a relationship there.

Erin McCann 1:06:44

So, just as we've talked about these conversations and the level of practice, the animal welfare considerations, as well as awareness on the connection between the quality-related factors and the animal welfare factors can differ dramatically between species. And certainly, whether we're thinking about land animals and sea life, that the question of a good death is certainly still a question when it comes to many, many species of fish and sea life. And part of that involves the way that they are killed, the time involved, and as you mentioned, simply placing them on ice, which has been standard practice in many spaces for a very long time, we know is not a pleasant experience, irrespective of some of the other questions around pain indicators across species, because it's essentially asphyxiation. Is that a fair summary?

Wasseem Emam 1:08:00

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, as you were saying that, I was thinking, how can we talk about a good death without even talking about a good life as well? Which is because you're asking about consumers demanding it and consumer awareness. And I was just telling you one of the things I'm excited about, that something like humane slaughter might be something that we actually see as standard. I didn't imagine that some years ago. And now it seems like it might actually happen. It's already happening, let's say, but a good life more and more. Of course, consumers are demanding that, which translates -- I was going to say certifiers are a big part of that conversation. We're seeing certifiers constantly up their requirements.

And there are things that we had asked them for that we thought were not doable and -- like humane slaughter. So they are now, Aquaculture Stewardship Council, which I worked for at some point before starting my own organisation, they're responsible for certifying seafood, they were so resistant to bringing in to mandating that any farm they certify has to be slaughtering their fish or aquatic animals in a certain way. And even now, they brought that in and they're phasing it in. And that's, I think, really progressive. Yeah.

Erin McCann 1:09:20

Absolutely. When we think about this discussion from a consumer lens, what steps can consumers take today to support better seafood choices? Whether we're thinking about all the lenses when we talk about ethical seafood choices, when we think about sustainability, when we think about animal welfare and more, what can consumers do?

Wasseem Emam 1:09:51

So, that's a very good question as well. And one that we get asked a lot, and one that I think does depend on what options you have where you are. I think it's a bit of a privilege, I think, to have some choices, let's say, that we have to also recognize, but if, you know, certified is -- you. I do have some concerns about certification schemes, so so I don't always say certified is better, but it gives us some indication -- they're more likely to be less bad, at least for aquaculture species. Marine Stewardship Council for wild-caught fish is generally okay, you know, it avoids some of the worst examples of wild-caught fish.

But I think some of these seafood guides, you get like, you know, so in the US, I think it's Seafood Watch. That's a big one. But in the UK, it's Marine Conservation Society, they have the Good Fish Guide. Um, that's much more, you know, informative. It tells you like, as a quick, you know, guide, okay, this species, red means avoid, you know, green means good. That's a quick way to, you know, if you really need to eat seafood or want to eat it, that's one way of, you know, having a reference.

But personally, I would say, you know, if we could all eat much, much lower trophic aquatic animals, like, you know, mackerel, for example. Mackerel are much more abundant. No one likes, you know, everyone wants to eat, you know, the more fancy, you know, salmon, tuna, this. But mackerel is actually very healthy compared to some of these others. If you have to eat fish, I mean, you know, there's sardines, there's all these like, what used to be considered poor man's fish, but they're much more sustainable choices. They're much more plentiful. I hate to use the word renewable, but their populations do regenerate much faster.

And we would be solving the issue of all these other fish being farmed to eat, like them being used to feed other fish. That would be one way of solving that issue, I would say. And then herbivorous fish are always a better choice. So tilapia, which are actually omnivorous, but they can live on a plant-only diet, are going to be better than some of these more top-level predators. And, you know, well, I guess maybe cell-based stuff is too soon, but I'd really like to see more people going for those and plant-based alternatives if possible.

Erin McCann 1:12:33

As you mentioned, plant-based alternatives exist today. So we'll include some of those links and, yes, continuing to support, as best we can, advancement of cell-based options.

Wasseem Emam 1:12:47

Sorry, I just want to say, like, especially these, like, egregious examples, like caviar, ask yourself, you know, a bit, you know, do you really need to? If you actually realize just how much these sturgeons suffer in the production of that, maybe, I think most people would feel differently when they really know and like, you know, octopus, like we talked about, and bluefin tuna is another good example. So, avoiding those clearly egregious examples, I think is a good place to start. You don't have to be, you know, go for the most ethical and the most extreme version of that. You can start small, at least, is what I wanted to say.

Erin McCann 1:13:24

And ask that question: do I really need this option? Yes. And I think earlier in the conversation, you had mentioned bluefin tuna, caviar and sturgeon, also including octopus in that example and more. And I'm excited to check out some of these resources in more detail and see what they have to say about these species. So, we'll make sure we're including those links. So, leveraging those resources to help speed and inform that process and really asking yourself, do I need this option? Right. Are there better options? Absolutely.

Wasseem Emam 1:14:06

Actually, Erin, do you have a minute? I just thought of two things. You know, one thing that's very interesting to share with our listeners is that more and more chefs now at some Michelin-starred restaurants are turning away from salmon. Even salmon, which was seen as this holy grail or so nutritious. More and more people are seeing, like, you know, I'm saying from the food industry, not just, you know, nutrition and so on, they're saying, nope, it's not a good product.

So, it's interesting to follow some of the trends there. And it'll be interesting to see, you know, where salmon was seen as, you know, this really nutritious option. I think we're slowly starting to see that differently. And I was going to mention that supplements, people always talk about, you know, omega-3s and all this, and I guess this is something close to your heart, you know, a lot more than me about this. But you know, there are plant-based alternatives for all of those which are very good, you know, like algae oils and stuff that can be just as good as, you know, the krill and all this other stuff. But yeah, sorry, I think you were going to say something when I jumped in.

Erin McCann 1:15:13

Great point. No need to apologize. Yes to everything you just said. In terms of turning away from salmon, one recent resource that I found particularly illuminating on this is the Netflix series, You Are What You Eat. The twin study shows some very detailed imagery and walks through particular factors and actually shows those involved in selecting what they're going to serve from a restaurant perspective, saying no to salmon from a variety of different lenses.

When it comes to the piece around supplements, I really appreciated you highlighting throughout this conversation that this is not just about ordering whole fish -- this is about fish feed, this is about the broader ecosystem, and this includes supplements like fish oil and omega-3s, which may not even just be considerations for ourselves, but also our families, our pets, and more. For me personally, I've been very grateful for years to have had easily available, vegan, fully plant-based omega-3 supplements. Mine are DHA and EPA-based, and I'm happy to include some links to those as well. And there are quite a few options out there, so, this seems to be a growing category.

And yes, I 100% support the point that through any of these decisions, there are plant-based options, and we'll include some of those. I imagine there are even more than what we've touched on today, but always highlight that any increase in plant-based choices helps our own health, helps animals, helps the planet, and there's so many opportunities to do so, including all of the different decisions we've talked about today.

When you think about your next steps as a leader and from the organization, what are some additional goals or projects that you're focused on that we haven't yet touched upon?

Wasseem Emam 1:17:27

Yeah, it's a good one. So I did touch upon a little bit about this humane slaughter and how we can see that coming in. But what I'm excited about with humane slaughter is actually we managed to get funding to try out that bringing in electrical stunning to Egypt for a starter, and in Africa, it's the first place it's ever been done within the continent. And I'm a bit terrified just about all the potential things that can go wrong. But our funder has been quite generous in allowing us to, you know, try, you know, if we fail, we fail.

But that has the potential to be very impactful. I think we're working with some really good people on the ground, you know, who the industry will take seriously. And we have thought of a good mechanism for, you know, multiple farmers to use the same machine when they come to catch the fish, when, you know, come market time, comes to market their fish. And if we can get that scheme off the ground, I think that'd be really, really exciting and something we can roll out to other places.

And I think the thing about humane slaughter is, or electrical stunning, is that it's a bit of a low-hanging fruit that we know that we can improve that part, if nothing else, during their lives. At least we can give them a good death. And that's why I think, you know, I feel a bit more, less ambivalent about it and more sort of certain that this is a good thing.

And we'll also be trialling a certification scheme for smaller-scale producers. Normally, these schemes are for large farms that, you know, get the labels, that can afford the labels, but we're trying something smaller like, you know, within, like locally, that we, you know, they all join together and there's a, you know, co-operative type system which pushes them and motivates them, encourages them to better practices, let's say, you know, higher welfare practices, better environmental practices.

And that's something we haven't tried before. But we're working with consultants who have had really good success elsewhere and we think that that might be the right time for places like North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa. So, we're very excited about those two possibilities this year.

Erin McCann 1:19:42

It actually broke up just a bit. I just want to make sure I'm highlighting your key points. So cooperative, cooperative system that brings everyone together, so you're helping to bring them in a community and supporting one another and collaborating and addressing some of those lacks of certification that you mentioned earlier.

Wasseem Emam 1:20:00

Because normally it's unaffordable for smaller scale. The thing is, the majority of farmers are small-scale, but they're the ones that are forgotten about. So the certifiers, they usually go for the big players, but actually, we need something for the smaller scale. So, we're thinking one of these cooperative-run, something run by cooperatives, so it's by them for them, but, you know, we help them design it. Yeah, hopefully that came through that time.

Erin McCann 1:20:28

Absolutely. And if I'm hearing your key points to the earlier example, rolling out electrostunning has its technical facets, has operational challenges, and given the current state of lack of electrostunning, it's absolutely imperative to move forward despite these potential challenges because you see very little risk from improving animal welfare for the species involved. And it's worth those trade-offs in terms of bringing this at scale and navigating the complexities of the process.

Wasseem Emam 1:21:04

I mean, if you do it right, there's very little risk of making things worse as opposed to some of the other practices, which actually, so, you know, sometimes can backfire. Yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah.

Erin McCann 1:21:16

Makes sense. How can listeners, potential collaborators, and stakeholders learn more, contribute to, or support these efforts?

Wasseem Emam 1:21:29

Yeah, so, I mean, we are a nonprofit, and so the work we do on the ground, especially in Kenya, and soon Egypt, will be nonprofit as well. So we're always obviously open to any donations that people feel like they want to contribute. We're always appreciative of that.

But, aside from that, of course, we love to bang on about the message of aquatic animal sentience and raise awareness about that so people can inform themselves. That's, I think, a big part of our work, that we've succeeded in our work, I think, in our mission.

And on that note, I wanted to share with your listeners about an exciting initiative we're working on this year -- it is a bit different from everything else we've been doing. So, we have an activity book on aquatic animal welfare coming out. This almost will be released next month, actually, so I can pass a link as well to be included.

That activity book is for all ages, really, but it takes you through some of the challenges aquatic animals face, you know, in the wild and fish in aquaculture settings. What about shrimps? What about octopus? What about marine mammals? And each one is like fun games, quizzes, Sudoku, some crosswords, some like, coloring activities and stuff, which I'm really excited about. I think it's something different. And we had an opportunity to work with some great illustrators, so we're really excited to see how that's received in the coming months. So, it's exciting. Definitely. That's a shameless self plug there.

Erin McCann 1:23:12

Definitely want to get that out there and we know that coloring at any age can be helpful for our own well-being, so, I'm hearing this as great for listeners, whether on the younger or any age. And when it comes to other ways to stay in touch with your organization, you are on social media. How can people follow you, engage with you, get in touch if they want to learn more?

Wasseem Emam 1:23:41

So, we're on all platforms except TikTok for now. I think LinkedIn is our main one. That's just where our audience seems to mostly be. So, we're very responsive on LinkedIn, and we appreciate any reshares of our content and interactions, and we try to post relevant stuff, educational, sorry, material, not just you know, promoting our own activities and so on. And we're also on Twitter, or X, and Facebook. Do you want the like links or do you usually just put them in?

Erin McCann 1:24:17

We'll include those all, yes -- just want to make sure that your preferences are highlighted for those that want to get in touch.

Wasseem Emam 1:24:26

And also, I was going to say we're always interested in collaborations and we have on our website, like a link that says, if you're interested in working with us, reach out. And even though we don't have open opportunities right now, we always keep people CVs on file and when things come up, we're interested or volunteers and so on, we're always going to -- there's always no shortage of need for good people, let's say, and who are passionate about the mission.

Erin McCann 1:24:54

Fantastic. While there are not open positions today, you're always looking for those to follow, to learn more, to engage with your content, to reach out if interested in volunteering, and essentially to keep learning and sharing this message and putting these questions into practice for themselves.

Wasseem Emam 1:25:16

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Erin McCann 1:25:19

Excellent. Thank you so much, Wasseem. This has been an insightful, inspiring conversation and I'm excited to see the responses. So, for those listening, please feel free to reach out and share your thoughts and comments. We'd love to hear from you. And Wasseem, thank you so much for your time today.

Wasseem Emam 1:25:39

Likewise, thank you. It's been a real pleasure to discuss some of the issues that we're most passionate about. So, thank you for giving us the opportunity and we look forward to seeing how everyone reacts.

Erin McCann 1:25:49

I do too. And thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate all of your thoughts and insights.