Ethical Seafood, Aquatic Animal Welfare, & Marine Conservation with Wasseem Emam - Part 1

SPEAKERS Erin McCann, Wasseem Emam

Erin McCann 00:03

Thanks so much for joining this episode of the Compassionate and Beneficial Living podcast. Please follow, subscribe, share your comments, share with others, and let us know what topics you'd like to hear covered next.

In this episode, we dive deep into the underwater world of aquatic animals and the different sustainability problems facing fisheries and aquaculture sectors with Wasseem Emam, the passionate leader of Ethical Seafood Research.

In this compelling episode, we explore why our seafood choices matter for ocean health and biodiversity and the urgent ethical challenges facing both farmed and wild capture seafood operations. Wasseem shares invaluable insights from his years working across the sector as an ecologist and animal welfare researcher, shedding light on innovative solutions and global initiatives aimed at improving the welfare of aquatic life while ensuring sustainable practices for both producers and animals.

He outlines tangible steps taken by his team across Africa to drive positive change within both the public and private sectors and to promote the uptake of responsible production practices. With a keen eye on the future, we delve into the evolving landscape of the seafood sector and discuss the current standards of fish welfare, pinpointing crucial gaps that demand attention.

But it's not just about identifying problems. We empower listeners with actionable steps to support ethical seafood choices and contribute to a healthier planet. Join us as we navigate through thought-provoking discussions on how our food choices impact our own health, the health of the animals involved in the food system, and the overall health of our planet.

Wasseem leaves us with a powerful question to ponder daily, igniting a collective journey toward a more compassionate world for all living beings. Plus, stick around for an enlightening addendum where Wasseem shares personal anecdotes and insights into his journey founding Ethical Seafood Research. It's a conversation you won't want to miss.

Erin McCann 02:01

Hello, and thanks so much for joining. I'm very excited that Wasseem Emam, Director and Head of Research at Ethical Seafood Research, joins us today. Hi, Wasseem. Thank you so much for being here.

Wasseem Emam 02:14

Hi, Erin. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to join you.

Erin McCann 02:18

I'm very excited for our discussion. To kick things off, could you tell us a little bit about the story behind founding Ethical Seafood Research and why you chose to focus on the welfare of aquatic animals within the seafood industry?

Wasseem Emam 02:32

So that's actually a funny one. So I kind of started ESR in a bit of an accidental way, let's say. I was always working on things around sustainability in fisheries. Sustainability in aquaculture. That's basically been my whole career since University. But then when I worked in the European Parliament in Brussels just before COVID. One of my roles in the Policy Department looking at reports that were coming in from consultants that were like, working on various topics related to, let's say, sustainable fisheries and aquaculture in the European Union, I started thinking, well, actually, I'd much prefer to be doing the work that I'm reviewing as opposed to reviewing the work. And I thought, oh, how do I get into that sort of work? And I contacted some of the consultants that were listed in these reports I was reviewing, and they said to me, well, you know, first of all, you have to register as an entity because people take you a lot more seriously as opposed to just an individual. And I just registered a name and didn't really give it too much thought in the beginning. I thought, well, I know that I like the area of, I know I want to be doing research. I know that, you know, animal welfare is important. Sustainability is important, all these different elements. So the word ethical came to mind. But I struggled a bit on the word seafood because I know that, well, I get a lot of sort of criticism from some of animal advocates about, you know, commodifying animals by calling them seafood. But I remind them that actually that does include things like, you know, seaweed, sea cucumbers, and we work on them also just as much as finfish and so on.

So that's a bit of the history of the name and how I came up with it. But I have to say that in the beginning, it was just me as a consultant applying for these projects with other consultants we'd bid together, and it was just me. Then I spent some time in Zanzibar earlier last year as part of an Effective Altruism residency that was meant to bring the leaders of EA and Africa together to work on projects that were really important priorities for leaders in Africa. And it was then that I really started thinking, well, why don't I, you know, actually give more thought to how I grow as an organisation and what I can do with my expertise and so on.

And I met someone there from Kenya who really encouraged me to grow my team. He came on board and he said to me, well, he was looking for work as he'd just been made redundant working on hen welfare. And he said, well, let's do something on fish welfare in Kenya. And I realized, actually, Africa is one of the places where there's not much going on at all within fish welfare in aquaculture. And I thought, okay, well, let's focus on there. And things really grew from there.

But why did I choose aquatic animals within seafood? So I was already working on, let's say, sustainability. My background is in ecology. I'm an ecologist -- an aquatic ecologist, but I never really felt comfortable in industry, and that's where a lot of people end up. So when I learned about animal welfare, it felt like a natural fit for someone who's trying to help animals, but also trying to, you know, sort of, let's say, make the industry mitigate some of the worst impacts of industry. Yeah, that's how I came into it. And actually, I will just say about fisheries and aquaculture, it's also a question of scale. So there's fish that are affected by, you know, the aquarium trade, what they call the 'ornamental trade'. That's very bad, of course. But the scale compared to, you know, the number of fish that are caught in wild fisheries or aquaculture is much, much smaller. And then there's also, you know, fish used in scientific experiments. Whilst I do care about them, I felt like fisheries and aquaculture is where I could have the most impact. Yeah.

Erin McCann 06:43

So you're saying when we think about finfish, when we think about sea life, there are a variety of different spaces we need to think about, including ornamental or what many might think about in terms of fish in aquariums as pets and more. There are certainly fish used in research, and the number is tremendous. However, you felt that you could make the greatest impact focusing on the industry side and particularly when you think about the food industry. Am I hearing you right?

Wasseem Emam 07:15

Absolutely, yeah. Food side, the one I could make the most difference in yeah.

Erin McCann 07:21

Well, you mentioned focusing on key issues that had not yet been addressed in Africa and beyond. What do you see as some of the most pressing ethical issues facing both farmed and wild capture seafood in operations today?

Wasseem Emam 07:41

Yeah. So the word ethical, I think we have to first agree, or at least for ESR, we like to define that we look at it from an animal's perspective, because, of course, with 'ethical', there are things like human trafficking that goes on in the fishing industry, and that's obviously terrible, but we're not working on that right now. That doesn't mean it's not a priority. It's just, you know, we have to obviously all pick our battles and then there's like labor violations of all sorts that happen and then there are environmental issues. So we try to focus on the animal welfare aspect. I think that's what we feel particularly well-placed to do and use that lens.

So just after defining that, I'd also have to say that farmed animals and wild caught are so different and the realities are so different. So we have to also spend a bit of time maybe disentangling that when we talk to people about the most pressing issues. So for wild fisheries, one of the big issues, of course, is overfishing. You know, most of us know that -- I hope that most people know that the oceans are experiencing all kinds of threats and we've fully exploited or overexploited most of the resources. Fisheries, let's say it's particular, they are in the ocean. So that's a huge issue, of course, and we need to be giving those fisheries much more of a break than we do. We're, like, operating very close to limit in many ways. That's a big issue.

But then also each gear, when you say fishing, there's so many different ways you can catch fish, and each one has its own ethical concerns, let's say. So if we look at the passive forms of fishing, like long lines where there's like these huge lines with hooks that are left out, they can actually stretch out for kilometers and they can be left for a number of days even sometimes. They catch all sorts of animals that they're not meant to catch, which is what they call 'bycatch'. That's a big issue. You know, you can catch marine mammals, for example, and turtles and seals even sometimes.

On the other end of the fishing spectrum, you have things, what they call active forms of fishing, like bottom trawling. So of course, you have the same issue of bycatch with bottom trawling, but you also have all the habitat destruction that happens because of these nets being dragged along the seafloor and sometimes sensitive marine habitats. It actually even takes place in marine protected areas and places, even in the UK. That's one of the projects or campaigns that we've worked on. So, you know, overfishing, bycatch, and then there's things like fishing gear that's used, it's abandoned and never actually retrieved, it ends up catching more fish. That's a phenomenon they call ghost fishing because it continues to fish. And it's actually quite a large-scale problem. That's just maybe two or three of the big ones that I feel strongly about, at least, that I think ethically make the fishing industry complicated. So that just gives you a flavor.

But then aquaculture is completely different. And even within aquaculture, we have to differentiate the species, the type of system, is it marine, is it fresh water? Everyone has a very, like, each case is very different. So I think most people in places like the US and Europe think of aquaculture as these, like big, you know, circular cages in the sea. But actually, that's a very small proportion of global aquaculture. And most aquaculture takes place inland in freshwater systems. And mostly these, like, what they call earthen ponds, species like common carp and silver carp, catfish, not always species that are not eaten so much in the Western world, but these are the ones that are like the biggest, biggest scale farming goes on for those species. And of course, tilapia. Tilapia is one of the species that's close to my heart. I consider myself an expert, let's say, somewhat on, you know, tilapia welfare at least, and I feel strongly about how we can improve their lives.

But the ethical issues in aquaculture. So, I mean, let's say the big one that people think of a lot is salmon, right? So salmon mostly comes from Norway, Chile, Canada, Scotland. One of the big issues, of course, as these enclosures that they're using are getting bigger and bigger and bigger, they're forcing a large number of fish to be kept in the same place, and it attracts many parasites. But the one that's particularly problematic is sea lice. There's sea lice infestations that come to these salmon, and they actually kill a lot of them. And if they don't kill them, they make them very stressed out, really poor welfare. So one of the solutions that the industry has for that is they use these fish that they call cleaner fish. You know, it's like it's wrasse and lumpfish that they use. They remove the lice from the salmon, but in return, and in turn, they have a hard time and they struggle and they die. And their welfare is poor in the systems that they're in, the salmon farms. So we've kind of used one animal to solve a problem in another animal's farming, which doesn't seem, you know, which seems problematic, let's say, from an ethical perspective.

So that's sea lice. Then, of course, you can't talk about salmon farming or farming of carnivorous animals like salmon without talking about the amount of fish meal and fish oil that goes into the feed that they're fed. So that typically comes from wild fisheries and it used to be just like byproducts that the industry was catching anyway. But now there's whole industries of fishing vessels that just go out to catch fish that end up being used just to make fish meal, fish oil. And they're mostly being caught in places like Africa, where they're already protein-poor countries, places that those countries should be -- if anyone's going to be eating those fish, it really should be them. So there's a number of NGO's doing some great work in that space. But definitely it raises ethical issues. And unfortunately, even substituting fish meal, fish oil, some of the other substitute, like soybean, has had this criticism because it requires a lot of land and so on. I'm not too, I'm not an expert on that by any means, but just to give you a flavor of some of the kind of debates that are always raging you know, fishmeal, fish oil, sea lice with salmon, of course, there's the deterrence they have around salmon farms to stop, let's say, tuna actually trying to eat the salmon. In Norway, that's become a problem. Seals in Scotland are a problem. Sometimes it's dolphins. And they end up having to either use acoustic deterrence or some places even shoot the animals, which is another ethical issue.

So that's marine -- I just focused on salmon because it's one that I think people know, that are more familiar with. But if we want to talk more globally of something that affects all types of aquaculture, there's always environmental impact. No farm leaves zero impact. There's always effluent that goes into the surrounding area. There's fish waste, feed waste. There's escapees of animals from those enclosures that go into the wild, and they can then breed with wild counterparts or compete with them. And I could really list lots of other issues, but it's just to give you a flavor of some of the things that go on that we feel are the biggest ethical concerns.

Erin McCann 15:47

And as you mentioned from the beginning, our definition of ethical matters, and you highlighted a number of different ethical issues that involve humans, whether we're thinking about some of the major problems related to human rights, human trafficking, as well as questions around who needs and obtains the protein in these conversations. I hear you that for the purpose of our discussion, today and for your mission, you're really focused on animals at the core of that ethical conversation, and people are part of it. And when we think about the animals involved, it's not simply exclusive to the finfish or other particular species that we're discussing most directly. And you gave some great examples of how we need to consider other sea life in that conversation, whether we're thinking about predators, others that are affected by bycatch, others that are affected by their environments being damaged. And there are so many layers to what you mentioned, but I want to simply highlight that when we're talking about the choice to eat seafood, right? We may be thinking about factors for that particular dish, that particular order, that particular species, but what I'm hearing from you is it is a far more complex conversation when we're thinking about making sustainable choices, when we're thinking about making ethical choices from a variety of different lenses. And we can't simply think about that one fish or that one meal, because we're also thinking about environmental impact, habitat, other species, other humans, and a variety of different considerations that go into that decision.

Wasseem Emam 17:33

And obviously, the context, you know, if we're talking about someone in North America versus someone in, you know, some of the parts of the world that we work in is, you know, they're very different considerations, like the options available to them, right? So that's part of the conversation for us, yeah.

Erin McCann 17:48

Thank you so much for elaborating on that and helping to provide that context. To your point about your work, let's jump into that more specifically. Tell us a little bit about how your organization is working to address these challenges.

Wasseem Emam 18:01

Sure. So, obviously, we don't work on all those things that I mentioned because it'd just be too much, I think, for any organization. So we tried to find our niche, and I think I mentioned earlier that we thought, okay, well, Africa seems to be a place where, you know, this conversation's not really taking place. And we think there are some win-win solutions. And we know farmers are always looking to improve and because, so we talk about extensive versus intensive farming, which is something that was taken from the livestock and land, terrestrial farming. But that's still very much a conversation within the fish farming world because many, many farmers still farm in quite, let's say, basic ways. You know, they -- not too many inputs and so on. So, there's a chance to do things right before things get too crazy. And, you know, we have this huge -- I don't like to use the word "factory farm" because it's hard to define that in aquatic systems -- but I would say salmon farming is a form of factory farming, and we have a chance to do that better in places that we work. Yeah. Absolutely. Sorry. So, how do we do that? So, our two main focuses are research and education. And that basically means understanding what would stop the farmers in question from implementing better practices. So we try to understand, you know, the challenges they face, the realities they face as well, so that we can think of solutions that are actually appropriate to them and their realities. Instead of being like, oh, well, maybe you should feed a bit more because you don't feed your fish enough. But actually, we don't know that the price of feed is very expensive and the reason they're maybe alternating the days they feed is because of economic considerations. So, that's insensitive to their reality. So, we try to tailor things in that way, yeah.

Erin McCann 20:02

I was intrigued by your use of the phrase "global solutions broker" on your website. Can you talk a little bit about -- what does that mean when you talk about your role in these solutions? What do we mean by global solutions broker and how are you facilitating this?

Wasseem Emam 20:22

Yeah, so I think that's kind of what I was touching upon in that last part that, you know, so in the three or four countries that we have active projects right now, we, first of all, always start with like a baseline survey or stakeholder mapping or some way to figure out, to get a lay of the land, to see what are the practices, what are the things that people are most concerned about, both from, well like all stakeholders, not just advocates and animal rights groups, but also the farmers and the government and so on. So once you've identified those, we then look, okay, well, where are the low-hanging fruits of things that would be good for animals, would be good for people? And, sort of, we experiment with different approaches. So, I can maybe talk a bit about that. But for the feed example that I gave -- so, instead of just saying, oh, you have to feed more, we can also look at, well, what exactly are they feeding? How often are they feeding? Where in the farm are they feeding? Because that has an impact on how well the fish are fed and so on. And simple -- we can improve animal welfare in aquaculture, actually sometimes through some fairly simple measures. So, when we talk about global solutions broker, I think we just, we mean, we see both how the industry approaches things. You know, they, I believe that most farmers, and I'm obviously talking about small scale farmers here, but in general, I believe that industry does want to do things better if they can. But of course, they're thinking about their bottom line as the most important. So, they want to see changes. Of course, you know, advocates and lobbyists want to see all sorts of changes, too, and the government wants to see changes. So, we see ourselves well, we see both perspectives and how do we keep both happy? And that is a challenge. But one of the things I like about animal welfare is that there are these win-win solutions sometimes. And when you do find them, it can be very, very rewarding. Yeah.

Erin McCann 22:30

Thank you for walking through that. I know you also work with academics. I want to make sure we don't leave them out of the conversation. You mentioned your emphasis on research. Can you talk a little bit about how you're supporting in that area as well?

Wasseem Emam 22:41

Yes. So in most of the places that we're active, one of the first things we do when we do the stakeholder map is we identify who's doing, who is most likely to understand and be sympathetic to our work and who is very active, and we partner with them. So in Egypt, for example, we have a university in the heart of the Nile Delta, which is where most of the fish farming happens, that we work closely with them and we both do capacity building for the students, but we also apply for joint projects to add to their research portfolio, let's say. But we also work with other stakeholders, too. So regulators, for example, in Zanzibar, we are working with the Ministry of Blue Economy and Fisheries. And that's sort of a new approach for us. But they told us, well, we want -- Zanzibar has been primarily a seaweed farming place, but they know that there is already a desire to move towards farming animals, to fish. Fish, I should say finfish. And they say, well, they heard about our work and they were like, well, we want to make sure that we do things in the best way from the beginning, so, can you help us? And we said, okay, well, let's think about how to develop a strategy. And we've just actually kicked off that project last week to model, basically practices from some of the places that are doing it in the best way already. They are ready, you know, and things like humane slaughter, can we maybe push them towards other places and environmental enrichment? That would be ideal, of course. So, yeah, we work with all kinds of stakeholders.

Erin McCann 24:30

I want to circle back on your last point here and delve into this a little bit deeper because I think you're touching on how you are setting a strategy, how you are defining progress or improvement. And we also know that by many standards, fish welfare and fish research are less developed today than they are for other species. When you think about setting those priorities, when you think about defining success, when you really think about what constitutes good welfare for finfish or other sea life, how do you go about addressing this, given that those gaps, that current state is not where it is today compared to other species?

Wasseem Emam 25:23

Yeah, so that's a really good question and definitely gets to the heart of one of the issues that I think most people in our world or space grapple with. You know, it's true there's a lot less research carried out on fish and other aquatic animals compared to land animals, especially animal welfare, especially -- I mean, if you look at terrestrial, like, farm animal welfare, cows, pigs, chickens, they've been, you know, researched for so much longer. There's so many more papers about, you know, the kind of enrichment you can provide them. And it's definitely, we're definitely always learning from them, and I would say several steps behind. But in the same way, we also have the advantage, by the way, that, you know, we learn from the pitfalls that they have, you know, the struggles that they've had, for example, with cage-free farming. There are lessons to be learned there.

But, I think one of the biggest issues with aquatic animals is that so people say fish, but what is fish? I mean, there's just aquaculture alone, there's 400 species of fish that are farmed around the world, right? So, you know, it's not like pigs or chickens or cows -- there's a lot, lot, lot more animals. So, not only are they already behind in terms of research and stuff, but there's also a lot more to learn because each animal is completely different. You can't -- what might work for a carp might not work for sea bass or sea bream, for example. And it does make things a bit more tricky. The approach that we take, and I think many researchers take, or scientists, and in that context is the precautionary principle. You know, for example, just because we don't know for sure that, you know, all aquatic animals feel pain doesn't mean we shouldn't assume they do, you know, so just to give you an example, you know, it's not because they have a nervous system or a vertebrate or they're vertebrates or whatever, that they don't -- they do or don't feel pain. And research, there was groundbreaking research from London School of Economics a few years ago that showed that decapods and crustaceans can feel pain. So that's, you know, obviously one of the approaches that we take.

But then I would say that the golden rule for aquatic animals when it comes to standards is that it has to be species-specific. You know, you can't just say, you know, this stocking density works for this fish, so it will work for another. I think, it has to be tailored to them. Otherwise, it risks actually sometimes making things worse. So, some fish actually like to be stocked at higher densities because otherwise there's aggression between species. And so you asked me about good welfare. What does good welfare look like?

Erin McCann 28:32

What does good welfare look like? Essentially, how you're tackling these challenges, how you're defining success, and if I'm hearing you right, it is complex, and perhaps more complex than it is for many species, in the sense that there are over 400 species to consider with aquaculture alone. So. part of what you're doing is getting very specific in terms of the species that you're focusing on, and not making assumptions from one species to another. Another piece that you're focused on is really learning from what evidence there is in terms of issues that have been addressed for land animals within factory farming and other systems, and drawing lessons from those, whether those are scientific frameworks, whether those are particular practices that you see parallels between fish and land animals and more, and also recognizing where the industry or where particular farming practices could be going, anticipating those issues and working with collaborators from all of these different spaces to essentially set good practices from the beginning, where possible, and work to mitigate issues that already exist today, even with a lack of research or evidence compared to other species. Is all that aligned with what you see as key priorities?