Saving Wildlife - Tourism and Fashion Reimagined with Tricia Croasdell, Global CEO of World Animal Protection
Links from this episode:
Wildlife. Not Fashion:https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk/our-work/wildlife/fashion/
Traditional Medicine: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/our-campaigns/wildlife/commercial-exploitation/traditional-medicine/
Travel companies failing wildlife: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/press-releases/revealed-travel-company-laggards-failing-wildlife/
Expedia News: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk/latest/news/expedia-group-dolphins-news/
Virgin Holidays: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/news/win-dolphins-virgin-holidays-ends-sales-captive-dolphin-entertainment/
easyJet holidays: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk/latest/news/easyjet-holidays-animal-welfare-policy/
Jet2holidays: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk/latest/news/jet2holidays-stop-selling-tickets/
Just Food Transition White Paper: https://justfoodtransitionroadmap.com/
How factory farming puts public health at risk: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/our-campaigns/food-systems/factory-farming/hidden-health-impacts/
The Truth about Global Wildlife Farming, Bred for Profit report: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/our-campaigns/wildlife/commercial-exploitation/wildlife-farming/bred-for-profit/
CITES Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora: https://cites.org/eng
We petitioned the Thai Government to Ban Elephant Breeding: https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/latest/blogs/world-animal-protection-presents-thai-government-172k-signatures-to-ban-elephant-breeding/
Protecting South African Lions: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/blogs/protecting-lions-in-south-africa/
Protecting bears in Vietnam: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/blogs/face-to-face-with-vietnams-bile-bears/#:~:text=At%20the%20time%2C%20around%204%2C300,wild%20from%20entering%20the%20farms
Wildlife Selfie Code (past campaign): https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/our-campaigns/past-campaigns/wildlife-selfie-code/
Superbugs Found in Waterways Next To Factory Farms: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/press-releases/deadly-superbugs-found-waterways-next-cruel-factory-farms/
Anti-microbial Resistance: https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk/latest/blogs/amr-exposed/
Exotic Pets (past campaign): https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/our-campaigns/past-campaigns/exotic-pets/
Follow World Animal Protection on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/world-animal-protection/mycompany/verification/
Follow World Animal Protection on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@worldanimalprotection
Follow World Animal Protection on X: https://x.com/movetheworld
Follow World Animal Protection on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/WorldAnimalProtectionInt
Podcast Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Erin McCann: Hello and thanks so much for joining. I'm incredibly excited that Tricia Croasdell, Global Chief Executive Officer of World Animal Protection, joins us today. Welcome to the podcast Tricia, so excited to have you here.
[00:00:13] Tricia Croasdell: Hey Erin, thank you so much, I'm so excited as well.
[00:00:16] Erin McCann: Wonderful. To kick things off, can you share a bit about your background, and what inspired you to take on the role of Global CEO of World Animal Protection?
[00:00:26] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah, sure I think, I can do the usual kind of career highlights. I joined World Animal Protection in 2022. I've spent my time in in politics, in government, and before moving into the kind of environment and animal welfare sectors. But really for me, it started a lot longer than that.
I grew up in South Africa. I was born in Zimbabwe. And I spent the early part of my childhood in South Africa, just for folks listening in who know it, north of Durban in KwaZulu Natal, a [00:01:00] place where, is rich in biodiversity and nature and wildlife. And I think for me, that early stages of your life when you spend it and you see wildlife in the wild, just, roaming around, it has a transformational effect on you, and I think it's never left me. And so I think I knew all the way through my career to this point that I would end up working with animals in some way, shape or form, and so when the opportunity arose to take on the role, I just jumped at it, really.
[00:01:36] Erin McCann: Amazing. And I hear you --I think for so many of us, experiencing wildlife helps us to connect to the importance of protecting animals, of protecting nature and their environments, and for you to discover that so early on in your life and find that calling is incredibly inspiring. It's amazing.
[00:01:56] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I just [00:02:00] think that you can make a change as an individual and small amounts of people can change the world. You don't need entire sort of millions and millions, although that helps. But so for me, it's been a kind of a journey to this point that has really allowed me to value, evaluate what is important in my life. And, I feel like I am finally in the position where I'm doing a job that I care deeply about that speaks very much to my values and my passion, but it also speaks to that kind of like global change and that transformational change we need to make.
And for me personally, that transformational change we need to make for animals because we have to be their voice. And that's really where my kind of heart lies in, in doing this role and being part of the World Animal Protection family.
[00:02:51] Erin McCann: Wonderful. And I absolutely hear you and agree. With any podcast discussion, we're trying to make sure that we're talking about at least [00:03:00] some ideas for how anyone listening can make a small change, ideally within the week, ideally, personally or professionally.
We certainly want to make sure we come back to that as we discuss some of the areas of focus, and that's a perfect segue to talk a little bit about, as you've stepped into your new role, what are some of the key priorities that you see for World Animal Protection for this year? For the next few years? And how you're thinking about defining and measuring success?
[00:03:27] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a little over two months, I think, in this role, but two years in World Animal Protection. And really as an organization, we are focused on two global goals. And one, if you can break it down into a pithy form, is to take the factory out of farming, to really take that intensity out of our food system and move to a more nature-based, more plant-based diet, but also move to a Healthy, Humane, Equitable Food [00:04:00] System.
And that's one of our goals. And the other goal is to really stop wild animals from being cruelly exploited for profit, which I know we're going to dive into today. And so, for me, those are, if you like, the big focuses. And what it means in the next few years on the food systems work, it's making sure that the animal welfare voice is right in the center of the just transition around our food system, right in the center of how, by removing animal cruelty, you can create a system that is more equitable, that is more humane, that is more sustainable, that is more in line with nature, environment, our climate -- all of those incredible things.
And part of that work is by really helping the public see the way in which meat-producing companies are destroying the earth, as well as creating lives of misery for millions and millions of animals. And the second [00:05:00] part of our work is really trying to transform, and educate, around the system that involves wildlife farming -- involves the use of animals in exploitative ways for profit -- whether that is in fashion, whether that's in traditional medicine, or whether that's in tourism.
And I think for us, we see an opportunity in the next year or so to really, really push on the tourism front and really get some of the last big beasts of the Northern Hemisphere tourism and travel companies to move in a way that we know consumers are demanding and consumers are starting to vote with their feet.
So underlying all of that is, is a kind of education of the problem. But the success measures really are about moving the system. So, for us as an organization, we talk about systemic change. And so making those lasting changes for animals. And I think that's where we have to educate people to that point where they [00:06:00] understand that they have a role as a consumer and they have choices as a consumer, whether it's in the food systems and/or within the kind of tourism, fashion, that there's so much power in that individual consumer choice that I feel like but it's so hard sometimes to unlock that because people are bombarded by so much information.
So for us as an organization, it's really trying to cut through and target in on some of those areas we feel like we can move in the next couple of years. And to your point about success indicators, you know, I'd like to see in the next year or so, the likes of TUI or GetYourGuide, or Klook, tourist companies, travel companies that that have not yet moved to animal welfare friendly policies.
We'd really like to see them move and join the likes of Expedia and British Airways and Virgin Holidays and easyJet and Jet2. So many are already on the table, so many have moved in the last few years. These seem like [00:07:00] the sort of the, the antiquated beasts that need to move with it.
And then as I said on the food system side, really making sure that animal welfare is in that just transition of the food system so that we can treat animals in a much, much better way and actually have a lot less farmed animals on this planet being born into a life of kind of cruelty and suffering.
[00:07:22] Erin McCann: So much to what you just said. I want to make sure that I heard a couple things correctly and that we elevate these for our listeners, because I think your point about being bombarded with lots of information is absolutely true. And there are times when it can almost seem like there are so many different things to focus on, how do we pick, right? And do particular issues come into collision or conflict or competition with one another? If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're elevating is that animal welfare is a key part of many conversations, of issues, that people are already focused on and are already championing and those [00:08:00] include more equitable and just food systems for humans and those include efforts to protect our planet, to support nature, to address climate concerns and more -- that these issues not only go hand in hand, but that by including animals as constituents, as part of that conversation, we're actually able to advance these other issues more comprehensively. Is that a fair statement?
[00:08:26] Tricia Croasdell: Absolutely. I think it's about, if you put animals at the center of this, the treatment of animals, at the center of this, it runs into so many different areas. It runs into the environment, into climate change impacts. It runs into the way in which economies focus.
It runs into human health impacts. So it's really, if you take a kind of animal welfare-centrist viewpoint, you can see how a change in animal welfare policy has these incredible benefits elsewhere to us as humans, but also [00:09:00] to our planet, and to the restoration of nature.
[00:09:03] Erin McCann: Absolutely. And you mentioned several of your key areas of focus. We'll make sure we include links for those so that our listeners can learn more about the decisions that they can make when it comes to travel and tourism, supporting these companies that have made positive advances, and more. And as you mentioned, for our time today, we're going to focus specifically on the issue that you mentioned of wildlife farming, which we know you have developed and the organization has developed very robust reports, not only on the state of wildlife farming, but how to chart a path forward in terms of ending wildlife farming worldwide.
So for our listeners who are new to this topic, let's start out with what is wildlife farming? And why is it particularly problematic for animals, people, and the planet?
[00:09:49] Tricia Croasdell: So wildlife farming is the breeding and raising of wild animals, usually to sell the animals or their parts or [00:10:00] their products from them for profit.
And as you said, World Animal Protection has done a number of reports and research into this. And most recently we did a research project into the global scale of wildlife farming. The report of it is Bred for Profit. And we estimate that around 5. 5 billion billion wild animals are bred and reared on wildlife farms for commercial exploitation.
So that's 5. 5 billion. Some of these wildlife farms hold more than 50, 000 animals. However, the industry data is scarce, and governments weren't actually able to provide that requested data, and I suppose what was for us was expected, but an astonishing lack of transparency, and by a result, an inadequate monitoring across the industry, which is deeply unsettling to us.
The things to consider about wildlife and keeping [00:11:00] wild animals in a kind of farm system is that they can suffer from disease, malnourishment, stress-induced behavior. We saw signs in our research of cannibalism, physical abnormalities caused by inbreeding, and premature death.
And even in well-managed facilities, higher volumes of animals, the focus was on profits, not on wild animal animal welfare. And I think there's three key areas to this that that are problematic. And they are public health, they're the argument around wildlife conservation, and about biodiversity loss.
So if I take public health to begin with, these wild animals are in highly stressful, highly unnatural, and poorly regulated conditions. And what that means, if we know if we put any kind of animal in close quarters in cramped, unsanitary conditions, it creates this ideal [00:12:00] environment that is their breeding ground for disease.
And it's when these unknown or new disease kind of jump to humans, you see catastrophic effects. And zoonotic disease outbreaks have thought to cause 2 million human deaths every year. And they're responsible for significantly more human illness. Of the zoonotic diseases in the human population that have come about since 1940 to 2004, 72 percent of them were from wildlife in origin. And these, you know, there's stuff that we know now, household names like Salmonella, Tuberculosis, Pneumonia. Some others that we may not have heard so much about, like West Nile Virus, Hepatitis A, Campylobacter, you know, all these delicious diseases. And, you know, including Avian Flu, which we hear about more regularly. These are just some of the diseases that have been spread from wildlife to people. So it has a significant impact. It's not just something that's unseen. [00:13:00]
The other part of the argument that we are often talked about in terms of public information is businesses try and make out that actually they're part of a wildlife conservation effort, and who would want to criticize that?
And they justify it as they're providing local livelihoods and that there's, there's a very important need to it. But none of the data stacks up on this. We actually just see the wildlife farms being used to be bred for further exploitative practices. And if you look at the, a sort of third of the species that were reported to be on wildlife farms between 2000 and 2020, a third of them are listed as threatened or near threatened on the IUCN red list, as people might know it.
And some others are listed on CITES, which is around the kind of regulation of international trade. And so what I'd say to your listeners is whilst a lot [00:14:00] of wildlife trade is still legal, this kind of breeding and wildlife farm has been known to lead to demand and fueling of products that would otherwise not be known about.
And it also gives opportunity for people to use that kind of like legal route to pass illegal products and launder those kind of products through those legal trade routes. So that's why it's such an important thing to highlight.
And then finally, I mentioned biodiversity loss. There's countless species that are being decimated by the wildlife trade, elephants, rhinos, pangolins, and when you overexploit any animal or plant, it disrupts the balance of our ecosystem.
So, anything like an overpopulation or underpopulation or an inbreeding, it can really disrupt it. And what we see in kind of wildlife farming, but also across the piece in the treatment of wild animals, is that their [00:15:00] habitats are being destroyed. And then there's this further argument to move into this wildlife conservation.
But actually it's all underlying the same problem, that wild animals being treated as kind of items of profit. And so, it's that cycle that we're needing to undermine and break.
[00:15:16] Erin McCann: Absolutely. And so just to recap, essentially what I'm hearing you say is not only do we have major issues in terms of the way animals are treated and essentially the lives that they're living, the conditions they're living under.
We also have very real disease concerns for animals and humans. We have biodiversity loss. We have impacts on the planet. So when we come back to the first point that you made in terms of the issues for human beings, in terms of just and equitable systems, in terms of the impact on the planet, in terms of climate, that these spaces are directly related, and that the lack of transparency, the lack of reporting has led to a [00:16:00] situation where many industry players may speak to conservation, but when you dig into your own data, when you investigate the practices that are actually being followed, and the lack of transparency around the space certainly plays a key role here, that essentially there are innumerable problems, as you just mentioned, and very few, if any, benefits when it comes to conservation. Is that a fair statement?
[00:16:26] Tricia Croasdell: That's correct. That's correct.
[00:16:28] Erin McCann: So, when we first kicked off the discussion, you mentioned a few different examples, but just to delve into these more directly, when we think about taking it a step further and the actual industries involved, how does wildlife farming supply industries including the pet trade, tourism, traditional Asian medicine, and fashion?
[00:16:56] Tricia Croasdell: As we said in our report, we've estimated that there's [00:17:00] 5. 5 billion wild animals currently being farmed globally, and that this is a kind of best conservative estimate based on the industry's lack of available data. That kind of breaks down into 525 million amphibians, so tree frogs, salamanders, toads, newts.
Then it breaks down into 171 million, approximately, birds from 246 species. Then 900 million mammals, so tigers, lions, macaws, dolphins, and then 441 million reptiles, so crocodiles bred for skin and meat. And just in those names of species, you can see there plays into the exotic pet trade, explains, plays into the birds and also feathers that are used for fashion. And then the mammals you can see in lions, tigers, and dolphins. And so, and then the reptiles also for kind of fashion products, as well as exotic meat or wildlife meat that, that [00:18:00] we see happening.
If I take one example, the tourism industry is exploiting wild animals on a global scale. Lions, dolphins, elephants are all used in kind of fee paying tourism industries. And I think for me, the thing that I find saddest is that people who go and see a dolphin show, or they might go and wash an elephant, they don't realize the contribution they're making to a kind of lifetime of suffering.
And, in the case of dolphins, they've either been bred in captivity, as an example, or they've been caught. And you only need to go and spend a couple of minutes on social media that you can see how those dolphins are caught and separated from their pods.
One of the cases that I've seen more recently is a family member has gone to Thailand and they sent me a little video of a baby elephant at the side of the road. And what they didn't realize when they were sending it to me was that that baby elephant was in something called 'the [00:19:00] crush'. And that is when it's in restraints to break its spirit so that it will stand for hours docilely and allow it to be touched. And I just think this, there's so many ways that, that we inadvertently cause pain without realizing it.
But I think if you can witness and you can also make different choices, I think people would make different choices if they knew that. And this is sent to me by a family member of, "this is really sad, this little baby elephant's on its own", but actually they didn't really realize what they were witnessing.
And it was only through watching it, it's heartbreaking. And I think that's where those industries are playing into these things where they're using animals in a way that is not -- it's just not right. I don't know a different way to say it, to be honest, it's just not right.
And, we see the same, maybe with animals that some people find less friendly, crocodiles and such, they're being bred in farms to become [00:20:00] product, to become fashion items. And I just think, we're living in a world now where you can make different choices. And I think that's really where I think the kind of education piece is, that there are these industries that are still profiting and driving to some extent, the demand for such kind of products or such sort of experiences.
[00:20:23] Erin McCann: Thank you so much for sharing those examples. And I've talked a little bit about this before. I just want to say this out loud again for our listeners who may be listening and realizing that there are things that they have chosen to do that fall in these categories and that would be harmful or supporting practices that are harmful to the animal because that can be a very difficult realization to come to.
And I don't like talking about this. It causes me pain every time, but I talk about it to try to ease that process for other people. I have a degree in animal welfare and I am someone that, at one time, rode an elephant [00:21:00] and swam with a dolphin and, was certainly not always vegan, had very few dietary restrictions, but, I wanna say at one point I was served alligator at a very young age.
There are things that we experience, whether as children or adults, and we may even be someone that gravitates toward animals, and that's why we wanted to see an animal while on vacation, or engage in a particular activity, and we don't know what has gone into that animal's suffering, and we can't change the past, right? But we can't let the past continue to remain part of our decision-making if we can take a look at the problems and if we can change course.
Myself, it's very difficult to talk about riding an elephant because I was in an age where on some level, I knew that this elephant is not in the wild, right? This elephant is not in an environment that we would normally find an animal experiencing [00:22:00] positive welfare. And, I talk about it so that, as we include links for others in terms of being empowered to make choices while traveling, being empowered to make choices on a day-to-day basis in terms of the companies we support, we may have made decisions in the past that we wouldn't make again, but it's our opportunity to change course and to make changes that do have a big impact.
I really appreciate you sharing that and I'm so glad that you found your calling early in life. And for those of us that have not always made the best decisions for animals, there is always an opportunity to do better. And this is an opportunity for us to talk about some spaces -- I think there's very little transparency in some cases. There's, there's little understanding in terms of the animals in supply chains, in the production environments that you're talking about. But I hope that our listeners, no matter what their past experiences are, can look at this as an opportunity to make different choices moving forward.
[00:22:58] Tricia Croasdell: Absolutely, I think, and Erin, [00:23:00] thank you for sharing it, because I think we've all got those experiences. When I was a lot younger, there used to be a dolphin show in Durban. That doesn't exist any longer, and it doesn't, I don't know if it doesn't exist in Durban, but it doesn't exist in the UK, and I remember going to it and thinking, it was kind of entertaining, but it's also reflecting back now how weird and strange and sad, and I now know so much more about dolphins in captivity.
I think there's always that chance for it to be a lesson. And I think actually you talking about it, and other people talking about their experiences, not as a way of blaming ourselves, but as a way of what we know now, and I think that's where we need to be. We need to be much more positive about everyone is moving on their own journey, and what you know now can make a difference in the future.
And I think sometimes those things that we experience when we're younger or we take part in, and then we realize, actually, I don't feel that comfortable about it now. Actually, those are the kind of lessons in life that are so beneficial. And I [00:24:00] think, for the most people, outside of our world who don't spend hours spending, thinking, about animal welfare, you are sold things in a way that you may not realize. We've seen it.
If I can take TUI as an example, as a travel company, the way in which they sell their dolphin experiences at the moment, it's like, "once in a lifetime ticket off your bucket list. You'll never forget it." They sell you this idea of fun and entertainment and you're on holiday with your family and wouldn't the kids love it?
And like you say, I was obsessed by animals as a kid, so I always wanted to go and see them. You didn't necessarily know whether you were in the right attraction or the right place, but you need to also just remember that as a consumer, you're also being sold certain things based on guilt, on family, on love, on all of these things, but it's just trying to look beneath the surface, particularly when it comes to animal [00:25:00] experiences. Just really look and see and think: if it isn't in a natural environment, if it isn't behaving in a natural way, make a different choice. That's the opportunity you have today.
[00:25:12] Erin McCann: Absolutely agree. And I'm glad that we'll share some resources to help empower listeners with that decision.
I think one key part of what you're describing is the planning aspect. So being able to make decisions in advance to do that digging under the hood in advance, as opposed to in the moment, helps to reduce some of those pressures as well. And we can talk more about strategies, but absolutely -- the focusing on the natural environment is a good, helpful way to filter through those opportunities. Absolutely.
So when we think about these spaces, was there anything you wanted to address before we move on? We talked about the pet trade and tourism a bit. I think your report also digs into traditional Asian medicine and fashion.
[00:25:56] Tricia Croasdell: I think on those, we're working in that space in traditional [00:26:00] medicine to try and offer alternatives to the industry, to offer non-animal product alternatives. And likewise, we're very involved with the likes of Collective Fashion Justice and, London Fashion Week earlier this year announced the no use of fur on the runway, which I know we've been trying for for a long time, and it's the first of the big fashion weeks that has announced it.
And now we move on to no feather, no skins. We keep iterating until we have an animal product-free fashion week, and not just for London, but for all the other kind of fashion weeks. So, all of these, especially things like the fashion industry, if you see it in, on one of the runways, the likelihood is it kind of filters down into commercial stops on your High Street.
So that's where we try and play at the area, or focus on the area where we'll have the most effect because of the ripple down that it might happen. But they're all, [00:27:00] to some extent, still involved in that kind of wildlife farming and the farming of animals for product. But I think, we'll probably get into it further down.
[00:27:09] Erin McCann: Well, when you think about the involvement that you just mentioned, what do you see as key steps and collaborations needed to end wildlife farming worldwide?
[00:27:19] Tricia Croasdell: So, as an organization, next year World Animal Protection will be 75 years old. And it's been in many guises, some people might know it as WSPA, the World Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, before we became World Animal Protection. What we've always done is work with partners. And that's part of the success. We cannot do this alone. Our heritage is around building partnerships. It's about building coalitions and really focusing on where the kind of lasting systemic changes. So we're always looking to work with others who share our values, who want to raise the profile of animal welfare.
And really, our [00:28:00] initiatives are like a lot of organizations would expect us to be, a lot of your listeners would expect to be, it's about evidence-based research, it's about getting the public to mobilize on our behalf, and then it's about using our leadership with stakeholders to really engage and be that voice for animals.
We often say that inside the organization, 'being the voice', but it's really important that we give those voice. Part of our work is around that public mobilization piece, and I think that's where I think your listeners can be so important and so vital for us. We have engaged millions of individuals around the world -- governments, organizations, corporations -- all to champion animal welfare.
And as an organization, we've got offices also around the world. We're located in China. We're located in Brazil. We've got quite a number in North America and Europe, as well as Africa and Australia. But there's still so much to do. There's never -- even coming up to our 75th [00:29:00] anniversary, there's still so much to do.
And we really Look at how we leverage our partnerships and our support to target governments, in particular governments, because particularly in this area of wildlife farming, which is so poorly regulated, there's so much pressure on the consumer, as we've just discussed, to make the right choices.
But actually, you could take it a step backwards and, by advocating for better legislation, and you get governments to introduce the regulations that the private sector follows, and you could actually see a phase out of wildlife farming. And in phasing that out, equally important to support the kind of alternative livelihoods for those communities that do wildlife farm.
And so, yeah, that's really where our kind of heart is at, is in those partnerships, in those kind of collaborations so that we can be an elevated voice, a voice of millions of people rather than just, just a voice on our own. I think it's so much more [00:30:00] powerful when people come together to request, fight, challenge for collective change, particularly in this space where you're doing something where there isn't a voice. If we humans don't raise the cry, it's not going to happen. So that's really where at the heart of our organization lies.
[00:30:19] Erin McCann: Thank you so much for sharing that. And I want to circle back on one thing that you mentioned, in case there are people listening that are thinking about the fact that there are jobs behind these spaces, that these are industries that are employing people.
And what I'm hearing you say is that as you collaborated, particularly with governments, working through plans for transition of roles for those who would be working in wildlife farming and would therefore need a shift in roles -- that would need their own livelihoods addressed as part of those strategies -- is part of the comprehensive work that you're doing and is part of the benefit of [00:31:00] collaborating with governments directly. Is that a fair summary?
[00:31:03] Tricia Croasdell: Yes. And I think it's also to make sure that governments have that feeling of pressure, that it is also theirs to find a solution. Because I think, particularly in the kind of non-governmental world or in the charity world, we can feel like we need to find all of the solutions. And actually what we need to do is work with governments and work with regulators so that the solutions are theirs.
Yeah, I can give you an example. We're working with the Rajasthani government at the moment on a place called Amer Fort, which is where there's around 80 elephants that are kept in quite horrific conditions and that they are -- tourists go and ride these elephants.
Now, we could jump in and say, we're going to do this, this, this, and this, but actually part of being a responsible organization that wants systemic change is to make sure that those solutions come from within locally, and that those solutions are also [00:32:00] sustained by government intervention, and that the government feel that there is a responsibility on them to find the exit strategy for the owners of those elephants, who are often individuals who simply own the elephant, and they make money through riding it.
We're an animal welfare charity. We are not an alternative livelihoods charity, but we are there to support people as they transition away from these industries, but we support them in terms of the pressure that we put on governments to find the alternatives. And there are always alternatives, but it's so easy sometimes to just to try and find the ultimate solution that wraps it all up today.
Whereas actually, when you're looking at systemic change, it takes a long time, but it's trying to stop more elephants from entering this arena and having a plan for them to exit.
[00:32:52] Erin McCann: Absolutely. And an ongoing, living plan, right? That you're continually evaluating progress and evolving and adapting as [00:33:00] needed.
[00:33:00] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah. And that you don't have that cycle where people step out of the industry and then step back in somewhere else. So it's making sure that there is a long-term plan, particularly around some of these kind of key areas that we're working in.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you. Before we continue, I just want to make sure if there are any other success efforts that you wanted to highlight.
These are incredibly inspiring examples, including tourism and fashion. And there were a number of different, incredibly inspiring examples in the reports in terms of the ongoing work and in terms of partnering with governments at various levels. Are there any other examples that you hold dear when you look at the successes to date?
So many, so many. But yeah, let me give you, I've got a couple of more if you'll indulge me. I think we spoke about elephants in India, but actually we've also been working with the Thai government around a draft elephant protection bill and ourselves, along with other NGOs, have offered a kind [00:34:00] of version of the bill to the Thai government that would bring in a breeding ban for elephants for commercial and entertainment purposes. As I alluded to earlier, the kind of brutal training practices that get them to perform in such ways.
In May this year, we handed in a petition with over 172, 000 signatures from 26 countries demanding the end to the exploitation of elephants in Thailand. We need that breeding ban in place because you have got 2, 800 captive elephants in Thailand.
You do not need any more elephants in Thailand. There is no conservation, biodiversity, any other argument for it. But we're obviously working against an industry that doesn't want to see the end of breeding in particular because babies bring money. And so that's one of the areas where we're very proud of the support, the public [00:35:00] mobilization and the offer that we've put into the Thai government.
It's for the Thai government to make that choice. I would add that they have an alternative bill from the industry that surprisingly doesn't include a breeding ban. So we continue to pressure them on this, but it's a work in progress. But I think it speaks to what World Animal Protection, alongside its kind of NGO partners, can do in terms of bringing the voice of people from 26 countries to the Thai Prime Minister and the Thai government.
And then another kind of success that we're, again, in partnership, we've been working with an organization called Blood Lions in South Africa. And they have been absolutely tireless campaigners in this space with us around ending the commercial captive lion industry. This is a term that listeners may or may not have heard, but canned lions is, is what we're talking about.
So these lions are brought up, they are raised, often inbred, purely for [00:36:00] hunting purposes, purely for foreign tourists to go to South Africa and to shoot them. And our estimate is that there's around 8, 000 kept in South Africa in nearly 350 facilities across the country. And people don't just necessarily engage in the hunting, but some people may go to cub petting or 'walk with lion' experiences.
And those are actually used to tame the lions, so that actually it's easier to hunt. So, it's a horrific full circle industry, but ourselves, along with our partners, Blood Lions, got a delivery from the South African government on its 2021 pledge to end the country's commercial captive industry. We've been part of the ministerial task force working out how a voluntary exit scheme would work for people involved in this.
And actually, in March this year, [00:37:00] they released their report and confirmed that that they are going to end this industry. So it's a first step along a kind of long journey as to how these lion breeding facilities need to be closed down and also what would happen to those lions. But again, it shows that kind of campaigning as part of a partnership, we get to an outcome where -- you know, animals such as the lions won't be bred into captivity.
And then, what else do I like to tell you? We can talk about the kind of alternatives we're trying to give to the tourism industry as well. So, it's all very good, us saying, "don't go and see dolphins in tanks", but people still would like to see marine life and mammals.
So, we have worked, based off a concept of whale heritage sites, which have been successfully developed by our partner, World Citation Alliance, on wildlife heritage [00:38:00] areas. And these are to give alternatives to the tourism travel companies, so that they can promote ethical and responsible animal experiences.
There's currently 10 wildlife heritage centers around the world. You can find out more. We'll drop it in the notes as to where these are. The criteria for a sort of designated area is really, really robust and it's transparent, so people can see and be reassured that the destinations are meeting the kind of highest standards of animal welfare.
And this program also works with local communities to make sure that they are benefiting from this, but it's really about creating responsible tourism. And really shifting the industry away from that idea of harmful captivity and towards a more kind of respectful coexistence with wildlife, nature, and the communities that surround them.
[00:38:50] Erin McCann: Thank you so much for walking through those examples. It's clear that, to your earlier point, there's always more work to do. With each success, there's more to build on. [00:39:00] That when we think about taking things further, what do you see as key areas for World Animal Protection and other organizations to collaborate, to build on these successes, particularly in terms of advancing wildlife farming bans? And, for instance, as you're talking about these examples, one question that comes to mind for me is, what role do technology companies and other platforms play? We've talked a little bit about some tourism examples. When we think about the role that photos play, right, in many tourism experiences, I can think about any number of different collaborators.
I know we've got some examples of successful collaborations to date. Would just love to hear your thoughts on how do we take things further, including additional types of organizations and collaborations?
[00:39:49] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah, I think that's the kind of ongoing challenge, isn't it? The ongoing challenge for us is always seeking those partnerships that we can build out.
As I've said, public mobilization [00:40:00] helps us incredibly in terms of moving governments in the right way and sort of shifting the way in which industries work so that they are either removing cruel animal practices or they're moving to more kind of ethical ways.
You mentioned technology, and I think, for us, we watch that technological advanced space very closely, always looking and trying to promote the kind of non-animal alternatives. As I mentioned, our work in traditional medicine has all been about working with practitioners in China to understand the issues and to then work with others to offer alternatives, whether that's synthetically- derived or more of a kind of herbal, engineered substitute.
I think there are things we can do in the tourism industry that perhaps you aren't able to go and see animals in the wildest of wildlife experiences and their most natural of habitats. But there are things like virtual reality experiences where you can walk through them and I think, if I [00:41:00] was growing up now, as a kid, I'd be mesmerized by going and having some VR experience where I can be around animals.
I think in terms of the illegal kind of activity associated with wildlife farms, there's a lot of surveillance and enforcement techniques that we watch and use, particularly around species identification. That's been very helpful. We've also used methods to distinguish between wild and captive lions, testing to try and catch up with a kind of lion bone trade that there is. And then, over the last couple of decades, World Animal Protection, along with other NGOs, has been integral in the microchipping of bears in Vietnam. Something that is very prevalent in other countries around domesticated animals, but it's actually very useful in that trade to make sure that there aren't new entries into the bear bile farming world.
And then we also use social listening techniques, image recognition software, particularly to gain insight where we think that wildlife exploitation [00:42:00] is happening. And then as you mentioned, social media. There's so much going on in that space that we are part of coalitions working on where we are looking at how, that social media is a tool for information, both good and bad, can be utilized, but also as a tool for education, particularly around selfies with animals and things like that.
And then we also collaborate with celebrities, where possible, as well to try and dispel some of the Instagram unreality that is showing people that they want to do, but actually try and get people and influencers to speak about the experience that they're actually having. So, it's a kind of melting pot of a number of areas for us.
[00:42:46] Erin McCann: And focused on different decisions to be made, right, and steps in each of these processes. Absolutely.
[00:42:52] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah.
[00:42:53] Erin McCann: When you think about critical next steps, what are some of the challenges you're [00:43:00] most focused on right now in terms of addressing barriers, in terms of advancing progress, whether on the consumer, the organizational, or the government side?
[00:43:13] Tricia Croasdell: I think some of the key challenges is really about targeted information to consumers. And I think that's a challenge for most organizations, but in a world where the kind of information zone has become proliferated, that's always a challenge to us to make sure that we're targeting the right people or the right audiences, particularly with information around more ethical kind of tourism methods.
I think a challenge for any kind of charity is always the money, the cost of to do this. We are often up against bigger businesses, multi-million profit organizations, who it's not in their interest to change. So it's really about how we use every possible tool to get our [00:44:00] message out.
And then I think we're not quite there yet in the animal cruelty, animal welfare being in the center of government's thinking. I think it's still seen very much as a kind of afterthought, and that connection of the dots of the impact on human health, and the impact on the environment, and the impact on the climate, and the impact on nature, and the impact-- it's getting that sense that that's where animals are. And I'll use a kind of example, is that in the UK at the moment, there is a big drive to try and clean up our waterways and our river ways, and in part, because the water companies have not been looking after sewage in the way that they should.
But actually, the point that I've made to the UK government is, you can't clear up riverways unless you deal with industrial farming, for instance. So then, again, it's an animal welfare issue, but the runoff into waterways is affecting human health. So it's always looking [00:45:00] at like, if you have animals at the heart of what you're doing, at the heart of government policy, you'd actually build a much healthier and happier society, and one that is more in tune with the environment, than we actually have today, and an economy that's more in tune with the environment that we have today.
[00:45:19] Erin McCann: I absolutely agree. I think, circling back on some of the points you had raised earlier in our discussion, when we think about bringing animals to that conversation, the benefits are innumerable for people, and for ecosystems, and for biodiversity, right?
And these conversations may involve broadening the stakeholders in the sense that animals are not necessarily part of the conversation today. But by doing so, we help people, and we help nature, and we help address climate issues, and we help in any number of different ways that are already top of mind and [00:46:00] areas of focus.
So they're not in competition. They are aligned.
[00:46:04] Tricia Croasdell: Yes. Absolutely. And I think it's sometimes, it's definitely tricky when you work in animal welfare. You feel sometimes if you're not leading with the animal issue, that somehow you're failing. But actually, often in these spaces, particularly the ones that I'm in and folks in World Animal Protection are in, we're talking about different issues.
We might be talking about antimicrobial resistance on human health, but actually what we're really talking about at the end of the day is animals. And it's just getting comfortable with being in those spaces and knowing who you represent, knowing the constituent that you represent. But that you might be talking about different issues around climate change or around habitat loss. But all of it, the center of it, is really about making a difference for animals across the globe.
[00:46:53] Erin McCann: Absolutely. So we mentioned from the beginning that we would talk about some tips for those [00:47:00] listening. Particularly when we think about those making day-to-day decisions, how can listeners ensure they make more compassionate choices related to pets, travel, traditional Asian medicine, and fashion, getting back to our four examples from earlier?
[00:47:18] Tricia Croasdell: So, I think the simplest way is to refuse to buy products that are made of wild animal parts, whether that's medicine, clothing, fashion. And where you see brands or companies that are promoting these items, you should shun them. And, where you aren't sure whether an item comes from or what it is made of, educate yourself. Ask those questions. Be that person that's in the shop going, "but what is it? What is it? What is it?" There are humane, sustainable alternatives available. You do not need to go down that route of purchasing crocodile skin or kangaroo skin or anything like that.
There's absolutely no need in this [00:48:00] world. And if anything, the alternatives are better, in my personal opinion.
The same goes for kind of any wild animal being kept as a pet. If it hasn't been domesticated over the last 2, 000 years, i. e. a cat or a dog, it probably shouldn't be in your home.
So, really looking at your decision as a fueler of a bigger issue. So you may be fascinated by reptiles, amphibians, but know that that is driving them either being taken from the wild or being intensely bred to be provided to you through the likes of pets at home or similar kind of places.
And then with travel and tourism, it's really, I suppose, our kind of general rule is: if you can hug it, ride it, touch it, wash it, or take a photo up close with a wild animal, the chances are that animal suffers in order to do it. If you are standing with a mega beast like an elephant, and it is not moving away from you, something is wrong. That [00:49:00] elephant has been trained in the most brutal ways to do that. And it knows that if it walks away, there'll be consequences. So, it's just being aware of, really, what might look like a great experience, just isn't. It's a lifetime of cruelty.
And so really urge, if you can't afford or you can't see animals in the wild, go on your favorite streaming service, watch some incredible documentary instead, but just don't go and engage in the practices that involve fueling that industry.
And, as much as people want to touch and be close to animals, knowing that wild animals are meant to be wild and further away from us for a whole range of issues. Just really taking that time to consider those experiences. And if you find yourself in that experience, you somehow have ended up at the dolphin show or at the elephant washing venue, just walk away.
Walk away and use it as a [00:50:00] point of education. Just if it happens and you end up there, then just use it as a life lesson, no judgment on you, and just know that there's a chance to do something different and become an advocate for a different way of seeing animals.
[00:50:14] Erin McCann: I know we are almost out of time. I can imagine some of our listeners hearing this and saying, well, what about zoos? Or what about aquariums? Do you have any kind of high-level practices or guidelines that you and World Animal Protection advise in those capacities?
[00:50:36] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah, I think, come and check out our website, because there is more advice on there around those areas, and it really does depend on the ownership, the running of, I wouldn't want to give a kind of blanket "no" to all of those, because there are some that are doing incredible work in conservation terms elsewhere in the world.
But, I think just come and check [00:51:00] out worldanimalprotection. org's website for further information. I think, as we spoke about earlier, especially if you've got kids who are interested in animals, taking them to the zoo is probably one of the ways that they're very keen to see it. But just be aware that not all captive facilities are built the same.
From us at World Animal Protection, we would prefer all animals to be seen in the wild, not in any captive circumstances, but there are sanctuaries out there that are doing great work in that they are offering a life for particularly elephants and the like, that you wouldn't get, they wouldn't get that life without it.
So it's just really just looking at who's owning it and the kind of the other partners they've got in that space. And actually, in the case of some of our elephant sanctuaries that we support in Thailand, they'll have consumer choice awards from TripAdvisor or they'll have our logo on them.
You can look for those and have a level of reassurement there.
[00:51:56] Erin McCann: Additional certification or essentially endorsement, [00:52:00] yes?
[00:52:00] Tricia Croasdell: Yeah.
[00:52:00] Erin McCann: Thank you for walking through those examples. In addition to your website, where else can listeners go to learn more about you and World Animal Protection and your impactful work?
[00:52:10] Tricia Croasdell: So, we're in the usual spaces. We're on LinkedIn, we're on TikTok, we're on X, although we put more of our content on LinkedIn nowadays. We're on Facebook and obviously on our website. So, yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn, it's Tricia Croasdell, and I often post about these issues.
I post important reports from not just ourselves, but from other organizations, so you can see the latest in animal welfare issues as seen from me.
[00:52:36] Erin McCann: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. This has been an inspiring and powerful conversation. We will make sure that the links to these resources are included along with this episode.
And I hope we can set up another time to talk about the issues that you mentioned from the beginning, because I know there's so much more to explore. Really appreciate you taking the time today.
[00:52:58] Tricia Croasdell: Oh, Erin, thank you so much. [00:53:00] And thanks so much to your listeners.
[00:53:01] Erin McCann: Thank you, Tricia. We're excited to see the responses and really appreciate you taking the time to share all of your insights with us.
[00:53:09] Tricia Croasdell: Thank you.